auburn hp suitability and preservation

Questions about all other brand differentials.
plumsauce
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auburn hp suitability and preservation

Postby plumsauce » Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:49 am

Hi,

First, a little bit of background to set the scene.

The two vehicles with limited slip differentials which were the most pleasing
to drive were:

a) 1973 Firebird Trans Am with 455 HO, Turbohydromatic 400, 3.08:1 rear

b) 1984 'ish Dodge Diplomat taxi special with Slant Six and 727 Torqueflite.
I suspect that the ratio was in the neighbourhood of 4.11:1

Were these likely to have used cone type limited slip carriers much like the
aftermarket Auburn HP?

If so, then I can be fairly certain of how they feel on the road.

The purpose of adding a limited slip is simply stability and drivability in
bad weather, especially deep snow. In most conditions, I don't hang the
tail out but I do like to feather the throttle to almost the point of slipping.
This is where the car feels most balanced in curves. I rarely ever do
hard launches and they are not important to me.

Finally, knowing that the Auburn HP is not rebuildable in the conventional
sense, what can be done at install time and during its lifetime to preserve
its life?

For example light deburring of the gears, loctiting the pin? Shimming?

The unit is going into a DANA 44 type case in the last Jaguar Salisbury IRS
series as seen in the 1995-1997 model years. These differ in some external
features from the preceding series, but the internals are the same.

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monzaz
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Re: auburn hp suitability and preservation

Postby monzaz » Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:40 pm

OK WE THE 1973 TRANS AM AND ALL THE 1970 -1981 cAMARO AND FIREBIRD REARS
All use the traction lock units which use clutch type units. A series of interchanging case and side gear engagement it will be a progressive engage upon spider gear pressure and the preload springs are really only for initial 0 - 10 /15 mph... Just there to keep everything snug and cozy the heavier the spring preload the harder the initial engagement pressure in turn and drag race seen. posi units will still work with out a preload spring. IT just makes everything much more smooth and reliable reaction
Taxi cab?? I would say had a 8.25 rear MAY BE....Maybe had a 9 1/4 But either way they used a Auburn cone tyoe unit in the mopars in those years.

The purpose for adding LSD additive is for make the clutches and or cones release smooth and consistent. When drag racing we do not use the additive as it is a slippage agent... We do not want any slippage in this application. If it is road racing or just street driving you might want to use the additive depending on the aggressiveness needed. OLD fluid will also make the posi units slip and grip violently in a inconsistent manner also. Another thing on the chatter is the steel clutches and cones will get glazed and again make inconsistent grabbing and releasing on the unit.

Longevity on any Posi unit- Clean fluid and keeping the oil level properly is key. Ypu have to understand that driving the car wears out your posi unit. PERIOD. There is NOTHING to do to make your posi last longer. Enjoy your car and drive it.'
IF YOU DRIVE STRAIGHT AND NEVER TAKE A TURN IN YOUR CAR THE POSI WILL LAST FOREVER.
IMPOSSIBLE...
THE PRELOAD SPRINGS CAN LESSON THE WEAR IN THE UNITS ALSO 200 # SPRINGS WILL PUT LESS PRESSURE ON THE PACK OR CONES CASING LESS WEAR ON THE SURFACE IN TURNS.
800# will wear more like sand paper and should NOT be used in street driving applications

basically you have to tune the posi to the type of driving you want to accomplish.

The cross shaft pinion pin retaining bolt is always locite lock tight (red, blue, green, something)

We do not have any problems with any of the posi units out on the market. HOW you drive will determine the life on the posi unit.

Jim Mitschke
J D Race
J D Race

plumsauce
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Re: auburn hp suitability and preservation

Postby plumsauce » Sat Jan 24, 2015 2:12 pm

Hi Jim,

Thanks for taking the time to answer.

The taxi specials were basically police package units with the slant six engine substituion.

HUGE brakes, good suspension.

Looks like the HP is a better choice than the PRO given the difference in preload springs.

Is that cross shaft pinion retaining bolt already loctite'd at the factory? Wandering around the
net suggests that some have fallen out.

Since the Firebird was plate and the Dodge was cone, I guess I'll be pretty happy either way.

Is a crush sleeve eliminator kit a good idea?

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monzaz
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Re: auburn hp suitability and preservation

Postby monzaz » Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:02 pm

It is ALWAYS the consumers responsibility to make sure the retaining bolt is lock tightened in.

bolt do not usually FALL out... lol. lots of time they do not get torqued correct too. NOW the retaining bolt is not going to take much and the reason for the lock tight. :)

I figure the Taxi would have the HD parts for what it has to do day in and day out.

We Never use solid crush sleeves. When a crush sleeve is installed correctly they last forever. or until the ring and pinion wear out...:) Do not fall for all the aftermarket tricks... JUst follow factory specs and you will usually be good for anything.

Preload torque specs and backlash SOME gears DO pattern up better at a wider backlash IE Richmond gears .010 Do not go over this for GM .006-.010 is all you have to work between on the backlash...HAVE to get it correct.
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Re: auburn hp suitability and preservation

Postby plumsauce » Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:16 pm

Glad I asked, because here is what the Auburn installation PDF says:

3. Install pinion shaft through the case and pinions,
aligning the hole in the shaft with the lock screw
hole. Install lock screw and torque to 20 - 25 lb ft.


And that is only on C clip type installs which require removing the shaft.

A careful person might decide to use loctite anyways.

In a non-C clip install, the installer would have no reason to remove the shaft
and would not likely do so.

Only a really careful person would remove the factory installed shaft for the sole
reason of adding loctite.

Yeah, car #18 was an amazing vehicle. Driven right, it could holeshot a early 80's Corvette. 8)

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Re: auburn hp suitability and preservation

Postby monzaz » Sun Jan 25, 2015 12:45 pm

mOST OF THE TIME WHEN WE RECEIVE POSI UNITS THE RETAINING BOLT WAS NOT EVEN SCREWED IN ALL THE WAY. New in the box
:)
This is why most companies expect a professional install.

What is car #18? Jim Just about anything would beat a 80's corvette...lol. :) An Omni even... :D Jim
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Re: auburn hp suitability and preservation

Postby plumsauce » Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:20 am

monzaz wrote:mOST OF THE TIME WHEN WE RECEIVE POSI UNITS THE RETAINING BOLT WAS NOT EVEN SCREWED IN ALL THE WAY. New in the box
:)
This is why most companies expect a professional install.


I know you're not joking, but someone could just as easily say that when they buy
a product they expect it to be properly assembled as delivered. This puts the whole
assembly in doubt. By this I mean can anyone even be sure that the case bolts are
torqued and thread locked at the factory? Might as well order a box of parts and put it
together yourself. At least it'll be done right.

What is car #18? Jim Just about anything would beat a 80's corvette...lol. :) An Omni even... :D Jim


The slant six. The girl he was trying to impress thought it was hilarious. He didn't, so he faced
off again at the next light. Blew his doors off again :D

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Re: auburn hp suitability and preservation

Postby monzaz » Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:23 am

Well when your in the business.... you double check everything. Bolts, nuts, etc.

Most parts get assembled by USA employees after manufactured out of the country. We can not even put the correct parts in a BOX these days...let alone torque a bolt correctly (skilled labor) Listen if the United States does not get there Stuff together with caring about what we do STILL assemble and manufacture...WERE ALL DOOMED!

To all United states Manufacture workers, CEO, what ever....PLEASE START CARING ABOUT what your doing. Give a crap - Just pretend every product you touch, build, sell is going to your family for use.

That is what is done here and it will keep you in line and pride at high levels.

Even if you make a widget... MAKE THE BEST **** WIDGET YOU CAN, every single one. IF you clean a bathroom clean it like your butt is going to sit on that seat.

Get your pride back...EVERY JOB IS IMPORTANT... Have pride in what ever you do.

The People who already do great work... keep spreading the word and action of what a good workers accomplishes, Our children need to learn!

Glad I got that off my chest in the morning. :) Back to your regularly scheduled programming. lol

GO USA
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Re: auburn hp suitability and preservation

Postby plumsauce » Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:09 pm

No disagreement on that one.

Just remember though ... just like sh** flows downhill ... so does the attitude of a business.

If a CEO does not lead by example, the front line will always produce sh**ty results. Yes, there
will be the few who resist and put their best into the job, but they will be the small minority.
The rest are just trying to make it through the day for the few pennies the CEO deems
necessary to leave on the table.

... Henry Ford senior was roundly criticised for paying his workers too much by other industrialists,
particularly by other car makers. His response was that if he did not pay them a decent wage,
he would have no customers. He was right.

The bigger picture is that if CEO A beggars his employees, he also beggars CEO B because
the employees of company A can't afford to buy from company B. But they don't get that
while engaged in the race to the bottom.

Voters should always consider whether the party line they favour benefits them or simply
enables further hoarding of wealth by the few at the very top of the heap.

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Re: auburn hp suitability and preservation

Postby monzaz » Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:44 pm

Give and a take...BUT I think you miss understood the post...

I AM TALKING ABOUT EVERYONE. CEO INCLUDED (they are in the post). I DID NOT SINGLE OUT ANYONE PERSON IN THAT POST.

YOU DID. CEO IS A JOB...DO IT RIGHT....EVERYONE.
CORRECT? PARENTS INCLUDED!!! teach respect...Morals... the basics PLEASE....

EVERYONE KNOWS RIGHT FROM WRONG...IT IS A CHOICE, PERIOD. DO THE RIGHT THING.

HOPE THAT CLEARS UP THE POST.

I WAS AN EMPLOYEE FOR 20 YEARS AND NOW I AM THE CEO. I THINK IF EVERYONE HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO EXPERIENCE BOTH ASPECTS WE COULD REALLY CHANGE. I TRY TO HELP EACH SIDE UNDERSTAND NEEDS AND WANTS AND HOW THINGS WORK DOWN THE CHAIN OF COMMAND AND PRODUCT LINES :)

NOW AS FAR AS VOTING oh crap I am in caps.... very sorry... that is a whole other pain... preliminaries need to have more equality... we can not have money be a reason a candidate has to drop out...votes, YES. No money to keep campaigning...NO The bulk of the candidates can not even make it past the New England states before getting knocked out. Also they need to start the races in different random states every election. IT ALWAYS takes the same crappy path ALWAYS.
candidates need to have a set amount of money to use and that is it. SEE how well they use there funds and that TOO will tell us something about there spending and creativity of the candidate . IF they can not balance the campaign budget how the Heck are they going to do the USA budget and issues? Oh I am sure we can post day and night on this stuff.

I know these are touchy subject on all forum boards and frowned down on. BUT this is MY SITE. :) Its good to be the king...lol. :)

Thanks again for listening and keeping an open mind . Jim

ALL I ASK THAT PEOPLE CARE TO EVEN DISCUSS AS WE ARE RIGHT NOW. THANK YOU. JIM MITSCHKE
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Re: auburn hp suitability and preservation

Postby plumsauce » Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:06 pm

The reason people don't care, is that they are trying to scrape by and resentful
of overpaid managers who couldn't manage their way out of a paper bag.

In my feeble way of thinking, every CEO should be able to do every job.

A long time ago, the owner of a business taught me that there is a right
way and a wrong way to mop floors. It was also the least physically taxing
way of doing it. Why? Because he started out by mopping floors. Nothing
takes the place of experience. He knew what a good job was, but also
knew how long it should take.

Also in my feeble way of thinking, if someone is a non-owner manager
at any level, they ought to be limited to X times the compensation of
the people they are managing. Of course, X would be the subject of
a huge debate.

The real problem is the educational system. Introductory economics
ought to be part of every curriculum before the university level.
A voter cannot vote intelligently if they cannot grasp the issues
in more than a jingoistic fashion.

It is true that those who "own the means of production" tend to reap
the benefits. Thus, globalisation and rationalisation is "not a good thing" (TM).
How so? How many manufacturers of differentials are left? Not brands,
but separate economic entities.

Now, back to differentials :lol:

Please don't hold the presumption that if someone does not know about a
critical aspect, such as differentials not being always torqued properly out
of the box, that they might not do as good a job as a professional.

If they don't know, but have asked, then they are at least proceeding in
the right direction. It might take them longer, but the job could be as good
or better than that yielded by someone who justs slaps the job together.

Did you know that there are car manufacturers that prohibit repairing certain
parts? Not because they are not repairable, but because they do not expect
that all dealership techs will have the ability to do the repair properly. Thus,
it becomes a R&R job.

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monzaz
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Re: auburn hp suitability and preservation

Postby monzaz » Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:53 pm

ALL I can tell you is this is ME -

copied from your post - A long time ago, the owner of a business taught me that there is a right
way and a wrong way to mop floors. It was also the least physically taxing
way of doing it. Why? Because he started out by mopping floors. Nothing
takes the place of experience. He knew what a good job was, but also
knew how long it should take.

I plunged toilets, changed A/C unit fuses and trouble shoot them for electrical issues, drove the bosses car to the car wash.... I DID IT ALL - I did not give up and took every job I could grab. Most of which i did not get paid extra for. BUT the experience was invaluable. So here I am- owning my own business.... trust me I thought that that job could be it.... BUT I refused to accept it and change my path.
I STILL PACK THE BOXES - BUILD THE REAR ENDS- ORDER THE PARTS- DELIVER THE REARS..... ME , CAUSE I CAN NOT FIND A SOUL TO DO IT RIGHT! MY OLD MAN STILL WORKS...for me. out works the little stooges i get the high school which got 100.00 a day and lunch just to disassemble rears and lay the parts on the floor.

I think it is S0 much easier now with computers to start a business than ever before. may more opportunities ON LINE. I am just tired of the whining and complaining. No jobs etc. Get out there and make a difference.

Remember do not think there are sides in our discussion. I can tell you I can fight for both side but for sake of argument we bring up points.

Like you said we better get back ther the diffs. CIA or Feds will be on this sight soon enough....LOL. :) Jim
J D Race

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Re: auburn hp suitability and preservation

Postby plumsauce » Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:52 pm

Well, I think we basically see eye to eye. We just say it differently.

Business on the internet is not necessarily easier, just different.

Now back to the regularly scheduled tech content ...

The ring gear that I will be using has 7/16" bolts, and the Auburn has 3/8"
bolt holes.

I need to redrill the holes to 29/64" to accomodate the bolts.

I plan to index each hole in a drill press using a 3/8" drill shaft,
clamp down, then change to the 29/64" bit and drill. Repeat 10 times.

Will this yield satisfactory accuracy or do you have another recommended
method?

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Re: auburn hp suitability and preservation

Postby monzaz » Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:32 am

IF you have a NEW drill that is correctly made... :) It should safely center itself to drill the holes.
Then chamfer the bolt head side for shoulder radius. and finally flat fie the ring gear side or chamfer again to remover flashing so ring gear seats flush on the machine mating surfaces.
to chamfer you can just use larger drill bit if you do not have correct bit.

You have to remember the bolts ONLY hole the ring from spinning around the carrier and the barrel centering machined press on area will always center the ring gear.

Sounds like you have all the proper tools and I just wanted to let anyone else reading that that can do this with minimal correct tooling/ and tools.
Obviously a drill press and hold down clamps will do a superior job.... But you can get the same final results with lesser tools. :) Jim Mitschke
J D Race

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Re: auburn hp suitability and preservation

Postby plumsauce » Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:47 pm

Thanks for confirming that it'll work and the reminder to chamfer the holes.

While the machined surfaces center the ring gear, the worry was more in
the area of the ring gear walking back and forth a tiny bit on load/unload
cycles. Retention of the ring gear bolts is a big worry if someone wanders
around the internet long enough on the subject.

One person who has done the exact application wrote back that he did
it with a 18V Makita for safety reasons because he didn't want kickback
on a drill press if the part was not properly clamped. He's been running
it about 3 years now.

You might find the crank drilling setup 2/5's of the way down this page
interesting:

http://www.hainesengineering.com/rhaine ... orvair.htm

The page is a good read anyways.

Thanks again, and a big thumbs up!


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